Difference between revisions of "Logs:OOC Weyrmeeting 30-08-13"

K'del says, "Okay, we'll get started!"

K'del says, "We're going to talk about four things: IC/OOC leadership, NPCs, plots, and Search. We'll try to keep it quick, with time for Q&A at the end!"

Leova says, "Thanks for coming, guys. Okay."

Leova says, "For the first time in HRW's history, our IC and OOC leadership is completely separate: call it an experiment! Hopefully it's pretty transparent for players, but since it does require extrae communication, here's how this works."

K'del says, "Azaylia and Z'ian (and Aishani) are IC heads. Their roles give them no more OOC responsibilities or authority than any other player... 'except' in terms of IC actions and availability, which is a lot."

K'del says, "(It's kind of awesome, as a ST, to not be constantly having to interact with myself to get things done.)"

Leova says, "While they aren't involved in OOCly running the area, IC leaders can and do make IC decisions that greatly influence HRW. They can ICly hire and fire and delegate, distribute IC resources, make IC policy, and so on. As with plots in general, admin has OOC oversight, and we do talk OOCly as things go along, but generally it's up to them. For example, H'vier went over his wingleader's head and ICly approached Z'ian, demanding to lead a wing. Z'ian ICly decided to make him wingsecond of a different wing... but Z'ian and H'vier's players could also have agreed for Z'ian to have made him wingleader or shipped him back to Cold Butte. It's not that you have to be an IC leader to make a difference; it's that this is the mandate of IC leaders."

Suireh was going to mock you for using wiki code in an OOC meeting, but I just remembered you'll probably post this on the wiki, so moot. ;p

Leova says, "Yeah, yeah, mocker. XD"

K'del may even end up wiki-coding the colours and highlights and whatever, because I'm obsessive. Shh.

K'del says, "So: take IC issues to the person who would ICly be addressing them, the way H'vier did, and take OOC issues to the admin team. For example, does your new rider desperately want a weyr with a bath? Ask Azaylia or Aishani for a scene so that your character can attempt to convince hers. Or do you have an idea for a shipwreck plot, the way D'kan did? Talk to admin. If your character has an IC concern but the person s/he would talk to isn't a PC, you can fudge it, for example, approaching Azaylia or Aishani instead of the headwoman, or else talk to admin and we can figure out with you what would happen or even ST (storytell) a NPC in a scene for you. But more on NPCs later!"

K'del says, "Regarding OOC leadership, Taikrin has been on hiatus due to RL (sad!), but she's hoping to ease herself back in (so feel free to make eyes at her for RP!), and Leova and I are both glad to talk: to answer questions, troubleshoot, listen to concerns, provide ideas including plot seeds, and so on. If something's on your mind, please talk to us about what's going on, positive or negative, the sooner the better-- especially in the case of concerns, because it's usually a lot easier to deal with an issue when it's still small and before it's become a big deal. We need to know something's on your mind before we can help-- and we very much do want to keep HRW a fun place for people to play."

Aishani thought the same thing about wiki code. >.>

Suireh ^5.

K'del says, "You suck. XD"

Leova says, "Two-way communication is vital in this! Talk to us, and let us talk to you."

Suireh says, "So..."

Suireh says, "Basically, you guys are like a game staff type thing."

K'del says, "Yessss?"

Suireh ?

K'del says, "Yeah, basically."

Suireh says, "So I can no longer blame you for my IC home being a wreck."

K'del says, "Correct!"

Suireh gets one last <^>-_-<^> for good measure.

K'del sticks out his tongue.

Leova says, "Time for more Q&A afterward, too~"

Suireh says, "Oh. Sorry."

C'wlin says, "help ansi"

Leova says, "Now, NPCs."

Leova says, "HRW uses NPCs, +bbposts, +mailed or paged plot seeds, and so forth to add depth to the world. NPCs make ideal antagonists (PC antagonists are difficult to maintain!), and can move things along in different ways. They have their own motivations and ideas about what's right. This lets us 'expand the grid', so the world feels larger and more complex than HRW or its PCs alone."

K'del says, "Clarifications, totally okay."

Leova help ansi() has the codes. <3

Suireh says, "Or you can turn ansi on and off with @set me=ansi, @set me=!ansi."

Leova says, "Note that we did not test out the flashing codes. >.>"

C'wlin says, "Thank you! I need to find a way to turn these off."

K'del says, "We prefer and encourage PCs to fill roles and pursue plot threads where possible and logical. Possible is critical: sometimes there just aren't available PCs who have taken up a particular role or are pursuing a particular plot thread. If there's something you'd like to be able to do with your character that you're curious about or that might help to have admin involvement, please do speak up; we're always happy to talk possibilities! Logical is important too: decisions and situations need to make sense, or at least be made to make sense. For example, we're all for PC wingleaders. Experienced characters get them by default, because that's what makes sense ICly. Teenagers just out of weyrlinghood are unlikely to get the job... unless there are factors such as massive amounts of IC bribery/blackmail, other characters giving them the side-eye, and that sort of thing making it more likely. If other people aren't actively involved, or aren't what a PC is looking for, a NPC may wind up involved. For instance, Azaylia ICly asked a PC to be Acting WL before asking a NPC; it was the PC's choice to turn it down, and her choice to ask a NPC."

Leova says, "Players have options, and they aren't options that have to come from or be run by admin. This also goes for the next thing we'll be talking about: plots."

Leova says, "In fact, while admin are happy to confer and help when appropriate, it's ideal when players week out their own options and pursue their own ideas. Iolene came up with the exiles, D'kan thought of the shipwreck, K'zin's off to Uncover the Truth, Aishani initiated the Revenge of the Vijays while Azaylia came up with Divided Leadership, Nahia sponsored the sit-in and H'kon was refuseniking all over the place... and, as everyone knows, C'wlin and N'hax (and Devaki!) made HRW/HRH relations go boom. XD"

Leova eyes C'wlin and N'hax in the studio audience, there.

Leova says, "And shout-outs, even. XD"

K'del says, "The Nabol succession isn't intended to be a long, drawn-out plot; there is plenty of room for everyone to get involved, whether by having opinions, trying to sway the results, being affected by the outcome, or what have you."

K'del says, "If you want a hook, please ask! If there's something you think your character would do to investigate, let us know! If you're unsure about anything, come and talk to us!"

Leova says, "As with all of our plots, though, there is no preset endpoint. It's not even just a 'choose your own adventure' from a couple different predets - the actions of individual characters can and will change what happens, and while we have some possibilities floating around, we are not in any way limited to them. The world is out there. Go get it."

K'del says, "Last, Search."

K'del says, "HRW's Search cycle starts in a week! SearchCo will be opened on Sunday, so if you're interested in joining and are ready to RP with applicants, keep an eye out for that. No one is granted automatic entry - if you're interested, you must respond with the information laid out in the bbpost."

Leova says, "Aishani's Iesaryth will be rising; keep an eye out for flight details. There will be no gold egg. We're anticipating a short, laid-back cycle! We'll continue to take instas, including for potential AWLMs down the road."

Leova duly shout-outs to Aishani over there, too~

Leova says, "Now, time for Q&A. What questions do you have?"

K'del says, "(If any!)"

Aishani hides Iesaryth.

Suireh says, "Should we just ask? Or do we page to ask?"

K'del says, "Just ask~"

Suireh says, "Ok."

Suireh has a question then. :P Go figure.

K'del says, "Poor Shani."

K'del says, "You always have questions. XD"

Suireh :P

K'del says, "Better out than in~"

Leova says, "If there are /tons/, then we'll queue for the answering or something, but in the meantime..."

Suireh says, "Sec, let me figure out how to ask this."

Suireh says, "It might be in a few parts."

K'del says, "Okay."

K'zin has arrived.

Aishani is having a similar sort of thing. :P

Suireh says, "So, my general mode of playing plot oriented scenes if they seem like they might break the area or have unintended consequences or what not, is to wait for admin approval for the scene after I play. Rather than wait permission before I play. Just cause sometimes, with my shitty availability and chasing after a kid, I'm not always on when someone I want to/need to scene with is on."

Suireh says, "Last week, when K'del was on vacation (and, no, I'm not asking you stop going on vacations ever XD), I wasn't really sure how long to wait, who to ask, or if I should just ditch the way I feel comfortable doing things."

Suireh says, "Is there any kind of standard operating procedure you'd be comfortable with as admins? Like... I know you said there are IC and OOC divides and having been an admin in the area and assuming plots are generally running in similar ways to when I was on the team... (Which may be a bad assumption)."

K'del phew. I was going to make sadfaces.

Suireh says, "But there are fuzzy lines between IC and OOC that are sometimes hard to distinguish."

Suireh says, "Even for someone, yes I'm going to be an egotistical prat here, like me. :P"

Suireh says, "Given communication is important."

Suireh says, "How do you envision communication working out generally? With regards to plots and stuff? Do we just play and deal with the consequences? Do we play, post up logs and then later, you'll ping us with: So hey... you did this... (such as N'hax and C'wlin torturing people), you might end up with these consequences: are you ok with that?"

N'hax snorts.

Suireh hands over a tissue.

K'del says, "In general, the 'play something and if unsure, send the log to hrwadmin to check over' model tends to work really well."

K'del says, "If we don't answer, ping us again. We're usually pretty good at replying to stuff, but it /does/ sometimes happen that we get caught up in other things and forget."

Suireh says, "Ok. But is there/should there be a sort of window in which, if we don't hear a reply back, we should just go forward? XD"

Leova notes per the vacation bbpost, there's a note to go ahead and +mail hrwadmin and an email address as needed, too.

Suireh says, "Cause sometimes, some scenes if 'held' kind of hold up other RP."

K'del says, "And to clarify: this is really a 'just in case this breaks everything' and 'did you think of that possible consequence' thing. We /don't/ need to approve your actions so much as make sure we're all on the same page."

Suireh says, "Ok. So no blowing up the Weyr. :P"

Suireh says, "Without your ok? Or that's ok. XD As long as I can deal with the consequences."

K'del says, "Generally, 24 hours? We should usually be able to get back to you in that kind of time."

Aishani would like the Weyr not... well. Let me know first.

K'del haha.

Suireh says, "You want in on it?"

Aishani says, "Sure!"

Suireh imported some of those Ballybran crystals.

K'del says, "Oh boy."

Leova says, "And as long as you're taking care with, say, not saying that you broke Lord Whosit's nose and he was totally okay with it and made you captain of his dragon guard, or what have you. XD"

Suireh says, "I'm sure we can figure out a way to explode them."

Aishani steeples fingers. Excellent.

K'del says, "And yet you say /I/ ruined your home."

Leova says, "And that. XD"

Suireh had another question...

Suireh says, "But I forgot it. Give me a sec."

K'del dies.

Leova says, "Anyone else have a question, while Suireh's thinking? Taking turns~"

Suireh says, "It might take a while... I took a load of laundry out of the dryer the other day and then accused my mom of losing my diapers."

Suireh says, "It was right next to the stairs."

K'del dies.

Leova says, "Anyone? Bueller?"

Suireh says, "Oh!"

Suireh remembers now, sort of.

H'vier has arrived.

Suireh says, "So. I don't know how to ask this without just asking it. :P There's no delicate way I can think of."

Taikrin says, "... delicate."

Suireh says, "Like your panties."

Leova (We're in the Q&A, btw, H'vier.)

Suireh says, "How would you like, or how should we as players... address admins when it comes to concerns of anything from harassment to, 'I need this scene done for this purpose, but this person keeps not playing with me and I don't know what to do' without becoming a kindergarten tattletale type deal?"

Suireh says, "Ideally, it'd be nice to just address the other player/person."

Suireh says, "But sometimes, that's hard."

Z'ian has arrived.

Suireh says, "That, would be, I imagine, something under the OOC admin side of thing as opposed to the IC admin side of things."

Leova says, "It would. (OOC rather than IC.)"

K'del says, "Definitely."

Suireh says, "and I know as head admin... I'd want people to come talk to me, but on this side of things... I'm realizing it'd be nice to have sort of a guideline."

Suireh says, "Like a set of checks? To do? To say? To +mail?"

Suireh doesn't know.

Suireh says, "It's much harder on this side of the river. XD"

K'del says, "Please, please, /please/ talk to us. However you feel comfortable. If it's a casual page, that's fine. If it's a +mail or email, also fine."

H'vier says, "Interpretive dance."

K'del says, "But if we don't know about it, we can't help, however 'helping' is."

K'del says, "Interpretive dance, also an option."

K'del says, "Charades, too."

Leova says, "If you're not at the stage of wanting to make a Formal Complaint(tm), that's fine too. We'd rather know. And if there wind up being several of these, then that says something too." Suireh says, "So what's the difference between just casually telling you and a 'Formal Complaint (tm)'?"

K'del says, "Yeah. Talking to us does not have to be a formal complaint. It /can/ be simply a 'I want to let you know about this situation, but I don't need you to do anything'."

Suireh says, "Like, do you do things differently?"

Leova gives K'del the charades. None for me, kthx. XD Small words, please.

Suireh ah. Ok.

Suireh says, "Not that this has happened."

K'del says, "We'll generally ask, if something gets brought to us, what kind of response you're looking for."

Suireh says, "but purely theoretically."

Suireh says, "what if it was a cross-area type deal?"

Suireh says, "Do we talk to both you and the Fort admin team together?"

Suireh says, "Or...?"

Suireh says, "One at a time? Or? Talk to you and you talk to them?"

Suireh says, "Or?"

Suireh says, "I'm sorry. ._. I ask a lot of questions."

Leova says, "Or, 'I see ABC happening and I feel DEF; is there another way to look at it, is there something I should consider?'"

K'del says, "It's up to you in that case, I think. We're happy to mediate with Fort's admins, or we can all work together."

K'del says, "But we'd like to know what's going on, at least."

Aishani has one that's sort of more out of curiosity, because I like plot stuff. But if I hated plot stuff (as I've LARPed with a lot of people that avoid it like the plague), and wanted to ignore it and just do whatever, my own thing, is that workable?

Suireh says, "Isn't that playing then?"

K'del says, "Sure!"

Aishani says, "I assume so! But you never know. And cool!"

K'del says, "As long as you don't... pretend things are different than they actually are, you can do what you like."

Leova says, "As in, 'Things are going on with Hold Stinky, but my char really doesn't care,' Aishani? If so, certainly."

Leova nods.

Suireh says, "Like Miley Cyrus, and living under a rock until this morning."

K'del says, "Exactly."

Suireh says, "When I made the colossal mistake of youtubing her video and going: ... that's what people are furious about?"

K'del says, "Just don't play that Miley Cyrus wore real clothes on stage."

Leova dead.

K'del says, "Unless your character is actively deluding themselves."

Aishani snerks.

Suireh says, "In my day... twerking was just called grinding."

H'vier couldn't watch all of it.

Suireh says, "Newfangledterminologyshit."

Aishani says, "If you twerk right, it looks different. She's just terrible at everything."

K'del says, "And by contrast, if you really wish you could add something interesting to the debacle, but can't think of anything, we're always happy to give plot cookies."

Suireh has never seen twerking until that video...

Leova says, "Oh yes."

K'del says, "But yes: you are not obligated to play anything."

Suireh won't get into the semantics of, to someone somewhere in this world, what Miley wore might have been real clothes.

Suireh XD

Aishani thumbsup.

K'del says, "Quite possibly."

Leova says, "Anyone else? You've got us here. XD"

K'del says, "Okay! Any other questions?"

Suireh says, "Is this possible regardless?"

Suireh says, "I mean."

N'hax says, "So... was there a PURPOSE to this meeting aside from IC/OOC clarifications?"

Suireh says, "That's a bad question. Let me rephrase."

H'vier says, "I don't really know what we're talking about, but are plots pre-worked out or can characters Do Things that change stuff?"

Leova says, "N'hax: Clarification of that, NPCs, how plots are handled, what's up with Search, and a chance for Q&A / discussion. Anything on your mind? What would you like to play?"

Suireh says, "If you're a wingleader, wingsecond, goldrider in general (?), Weyrleader, weyrlingmaster, whatever has a position attached to it."

Suireh says, "Is it still possible to ignore plot going on and just do your own thing?"

K'del says, "There seemed to have been some confusion. We wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page."

Suireh says, "Like."

Suireh says, "Can you ask to be a wingleader."

Leova says, "H'vier: the take-home message of what we talked about is that yes, yes, yes, characters can change things, and are in fact actively welcomed to."

Suireh says, "Or a weyrlingmaster type deal."

Suireh says, "And take the position with the understanding that you're not interested in most area plots?"

H'vier thumbs up.

N'hax nodnods. As a casual player of NC, it seemed to me that this was just a .. rehash of what is pretty much common knowledge. But it's nice to make sure everyone is on the same page, I suppose~

Suireh says, "Right~?"

K'del says, "We've had some conversations in which it has turned out that people weren't sure, so... we wanted to clarify. XD"

K'del says, "And to answer Suireh's question -"

K'del says, "In general, accepting a leadership position means we do largely expect you to be at least peripherally involved in plot, yes."

K'del says, "This is especially true with WW/WL types, who play central roles automatically."

Suireh says, "Ok. But it could be possible to be in an IC position of leadership and be an ostrich?"

Z'ian says, "Yeah, I know that I talked to you guys about NPC stuff. But I wasn't really confused, just perhaps concerned. XD"

Suireh says, "What were you concerned about?"

Suireh needs a tl;dr for the last few months. XD

Suireh says, "Sorry. ._. Too many questions again."

K'del says, "A person in a leadership position could try and be an ostrich, yes. But they'd probably get dragged into it, anyway."

N'hax thinks H'kon is kind of the exemplar for that.

K'del says, "Exactly!"

C'wlin has a question...

K'del says, "Yes, C'wlin?"

C'wlin says, "I'm a bit shy of asking this so gimme a second to compose. :)"

Leova grins. Okay.

Z'ian says, "My concerns were in regards to feeling like there was a glut of NPCs. Or rather that maybe we were starting lean on them to much as opposed to actually playing with each other? Like, I love the storyteller stuff and I thin K'del does a fab job, but when do we sort of /ease/ off of that?"

Vienne slips C'wlin some more rum.

Z'ian says, "But hey, I might be turning into a dinosaur. Maybe this is how all you young'uns are doing it these days."

Suireh says, "as someone who plays other games that are strongly STed, there's no 'easing' off as much as a copacetic relationship between ST and PvP."

Suireh says, "Where pvp isn't players killing each other. XD"

Suireh says, "But players interacting with each other with the knowledge gained from ST scenes."

Leova says, "If PCs are taking action, then NPCs are needed a whole lot less. (LHs and such aside.)" Vienne hangs out with the dinos.

Z'ian says, "Point. But also, if were using NPCss a /lot/ are we allowing there to be space for PCs?"

Suireh is more dino than anyone in this room.

Suireh :P

Z'ian says, "I don't think it's a contest. ;D"

Leova /hopes/ it's not. *looks shifty*

Taikrin says, "So, the best question to ask before using an NPC, I've found, is this: is there a PC who could fill this spot in whatever I'm doing?"

Aishani often hears the difficulty is in balancing the fact that the PCs are the stars of the story with reacting with the 'rest of the world'. Otherwise, it feels a bit like a vacuum.

N'hax thinks that is a great point, Taikrin.

K'del would love for more PCs to take things and run with them. But it's hard to run plots without NPCs because someone needs to be the antagonist (usually).

Z'ian says, "Yes, Taikrin. Thank you. :)"

K'del says, "Yeah. So if there's a role you think your character could take? Point it out! We may have missed it."

Leova says, "It helps to be active, too."

Leova says, "If person ABC is never playing, it's hard to look at that person and say, 'Wow, that person would be great for XYZ!'"

Aishani nods ruefully.

K'del says, "And it's hard throwing plot pieces at people who then don't actually use them."

Suireh says, "Are there any plots focused on HRW itself in the spanner?"

K'del says, "Because they're not playing."

Taikrin says, "Not a lot of people want to play bad guys, as K'del says; it's exhausting. And there are unfortunately only so many players to go around making PCs."

Suireh says, "Cause a lot of things right now have been circling around the Weyr?"

Suireh says, "But not at the Weyr itself."

Leova says, "Like... the change in leadership, Suireh?"

Suireh was more thinking HRH, pirates, Tillek, Nabol. And I love the external areas being involved in the Weyr and I love Hold politics myself.

Aishani says, "Jo and I are building a criminal enterprise /out/ of the Weyr."

Suireh says, "But, is there anything at the Weyr?"

Leova says, "Z'ian, any plans for Changes your char is inclined to make, or other boat-rocking, as WL?"

H'vier goes into competition with Aishani and Jo.

Aishani says, "Though that is necessarily sort of slow."

Suireh ooh.

Leova says, "It's tricky because some people are <3 plot <3 <3 <3, and some people are omg plot get me away don't have it here omg."

Aishani says, "I thought you were going to work with us. Hmph."

H'vier says, "Gotta start somewhere!"

Suireh says, "Don't go Boardwalk Empire on us dudes."

Jo snickers at H'vier, "Or join us." ;)

Aishani says, "We can absorb the smaller empire."

Z'ian makes a drudge the Weyrsecond. But seriously, I've been a lame ass recently the past few weeks. No bullshit excuses. I don't have any great changes on the horizon right now.

Suireh says, "So..."

Suireh says, "I know this is Q&A."

Suireh says, "But I was wondering if I could bring up something I kind of can see my character doing?"

Suireh says, "And just see how people feel about it."

Suireh says, "As a more Weyr-oriented sort of thing."

Z'ian says, "However on the Hold politics while they can be awesome, I think they might be difficult for more... lower ranked or more general character concepts to get into on the ground. However. Aishani's criminal empire or whatever is probably more accessible."

Suireh says, "If tat's ok?"

Z'ian says, "And something we haven't seen a lot of."

Aishani says, "Iesaryth's flight is open at the moment and I'm open to any ideas that people have for it, if they do have any!"

Suireh says, "A blue wins. XD"

K'del says, "I promise, there /are/ things that are going to impact lower-level characters, with the Nabol stuff."

K'del says, "(And not just more 'woe, no tithes'.)"

Aishani says, "LOL"

Leova says, "And not just those who have IC ties to Nabol."

H'vier needs lackeys.

Suireh has a scene on the brain for Nabol that involves non-leadershipy types. XD

Suireh says, "but it has to wait until after I get back from vacation. If I survive."

Suireh says, "but I was thinking, with the whole recent scene I had with C'wlin, my character might want to push for the idea of craftriders in actuality. Like with actual positions and what not. Draw up contracts with the various Halls and Weyrs that would delineate the terms of such things exactly for the next... *pauses to check +time*"

Prue has disconnected.

Suireh says, "150 years, so just a generation or so before the next Pass would start?"

K'del says, "Awesome."

Suireh says, "but I'm always a fan of the slow build."

Suireh says, "And it's hard to do this kind of stuff without actual PCs interested."

K'del says, "Our thoughts on craftriders have always been that if a PC made it happen, ICly, it would happen."

Suireh says, "Would this be of interest to people to play with?"

Leova doesn't eye the onetime smiths or anything. >.>

Suireh says, "or is it kind of hohumish."

Prue has connected.

Suireh is going to take the silence as hohumish. XD

Leova says, "We've been interested in people working on crafter-riders for some time. It mostly does depend on people who have tha background and being interested in pursuing it, however, as you noted. It won't be an easy presto, everyone can do both! thing. XD"

Aishani says, "I've been interested, but yeah, I have no crafting. ;)"

K'del ditto.

Jo dittos, too. XD

Leova says, "And on that note, N'hax, you mentioned being a casual player. As an example, what sorts of RP would get you actually out there and playing? This goes for anyone else who wants to speak up. What do you want to play more of, that you'll actually do?"

K'del throws up the first part of the log for those who got here late: http://hrweyr.net/Logs:OOC_Weyrmeeting_30-08-13

Suireh says, "Would anyone be interested in creating sort of temporary PC alts that might hook into the crafter thing? Which I guess is another question..."

Suireh raises a hand? :P

N'hax says, "Well, I know most people realize that I am a very active admin on a competing game, which has literally eaten all of my time recently, what with the new job et al. ;) But... I don't know. More inclusivity, I guess. A more friendly/welcoming/open... aura is such a lame word."

K'del probably would.

Prue would.

Leova (maybe we can even match people up~ matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match~ crafting or bad-guying, a whole mix of a batch~)

K'zin belatedly, as he stuffs his face, would be interested in RPing as/about crafter-riders. Suireh says, "Would temporary rider alts be allowed now?"

K'del says, "Absolutely."

Leova says, "Hm. I don't see games as competing, myself. ^^"

Suireh says, "So you could, theoretically, apply for a rider alt with the understanding it'd be for a finite time period?"

N'hax says, "That is an interesting first reaction to that whole statement, Leova. XD"

Leova /hopes/ that disagreeing there doesn't count as being less than friendly. XD

N'hax says, "I was using competing more loosely than in the corporate sense, I hope everyone realizes. ;)"

Suireh says, "Would that impact future insta alts? Or Search, for example?"

K'del says, "What would, to you, make the area feel more inclusive?"

Aishani says, "What can people do to be more inclusive other than asking for RP and going out in pub... yes. ;)"

Leova says, "This."

H'vier has considered making a candidate/resident that could come in as a crafter.

Suireh says, "Like if you did have a slew of temporary alts?"

K'del says, "Suireh: sure, absolutely. We have no set limits on these things - we look at things on a case by case basis."

Suireh says, "That were intended as temporary?"

Suireh says, "Ok."

Suireh says, "Just... as a former admin..."

N'hax says, "Well, I think a bit thing is having more transparency."

N'hax says, "There's this whole gimmick about this area where it's like... the plots are "behind the black covers" and players aren't really encouraged to know what is going on."

Suireh knows that looking at people's past is hard not to do. Esp. when that past is less than stellar and as much as you'd like to give someone a chance... and well, if you're known for, I don't know, killing off all your goldriders all the time.

N'hax says, "Again, gimmick used loosely. ;P"

K'del says, "That's mostly because we don't know what's going on until it happens."

K'del says, "It's not that we're trying to keep things from people."

Leova says, "People get ideas and pursue them."

K'del says, "/But/. I totally take the point. We're definitely not trying to be cloak-and-dagger secretive about stuff."

Leova says, "That's how plots work here."

K'del says, "So if it's coming across that way, that's good to know. XD"

N'hax says, "//Communicating// that would probably be a great thing. Because it comes off (to the casual player!) like you guys are masterminding all these complicated, intricate Top Level(tm) plots that ... aren't easy to get involved in, necessarily? And maybe not necessarily welcomed, no matter what the surface 'if you want to get involved just ask!' is out there makes it superficially seem."

Suireh says, "So can you explain?"

Suireh says, "Cause I know it seems like I'm an admin or involved with adminny things, but I swear, I'm not anymore. :P I play when I have time and code."

Suireh says, "and I haven't had trouble just jumping in, but I'm also used to it."

Suireh says, "So can you explain how it would be easier to just jump in?"

K'del says, "I promise, when we say 'ask to get involved', we really do mean it."

Suireh says, "Or how and why you perceive there's a black curtain with the Wizard of Oz behind it?" Aishani feels like she must note: if someone says "We want you to get involved!" and you don't /believe/ them... that's on you.

Prue raises hand. "What about temporary bad guy PCs?"

Aishani says, "You can take people at their word or assume... anything about their intentions."

Z'ian says, "Just to throw it out there the last big chunk of text N'hax just threw out? I have heard that from a few other people in the past about HRW. And I'm not saying that to stir trouble, but just that it does seem to be a rep that's developed, true or not."

Leova says, "Temp bad guy PCs are just fine. Just, balanced bad guy PCs: there's a bit of an onus to make sure they really have Motivation(tm) to do what they do, that the PCs think are bad, nstead of just being bad so they can be foils for the PCs."

Z'ian says, "And I'm also saying that as a person who really /hasn't/ experienced it myself. But if I'm hearing it from more than one source, I wonder if there isn't /something/ to it? If that makes sense?"

K'del says, "Okay. And I totally accept that that's a rep we seem to have. How can we fix it?" H'vier is kind of a bad guy PC in a way.

Leova says, "What K'del said. How can we fix it?"

Z'ian says, "I'll bad guy you, H'vier."

H'vier rowrs.

K'del says, "Because it is not ever my intention to block someone out of participating."

Leova also appreciates that, H'vie... ha, Z'ian.

Z'ian says, "Meow."

N'hax dunno, guys. I'm just giving you what it seems like from my POV.

K'del says, "And I'm glad you're being upfront about it."

Z'ian says, "I'm not an awesome problem solver. But I think it may be a long-term issue to be addressed, like not a one-two fix?"

K'del would rather hear it than not.

K'del nods. Definitely.

K'del says, "Would it help if I threw random plot points at people?"

Taikrin says, "Primary interest is: how do we fix it? Do you have any thoughts for what you might like to hear from us about plot, maybe?"

N'hax nodnods at K'del. And man, I'm not trying to make NC seem like this horrible place. I've had epic, epic RP on here, over various guises, over the years.

Aishani says, "It might be, but it's helpful to hear some ideas."

K'del says, "Or had a list of things people could investigate?"

Aishani says, "I came in here, more or less new, with a plot idea that was insane."

Vienne tries to formulate.... something.

Leova, too. You mentioned the 'just ask to be involved' thing, N'hax. I'd be interested in what happened when you did ask, and if you'd rather talk afterward (that goes for anyone), that's fine too. XD

Aishani says, "And they let me run with it"

H'vier says, "I think some of it is solved by simple familiarity. Which new players don't really have. And can be hard to maintain when one isn't as involved as they might like to be."

K'del says, "Yeah, I can see that, H'vier."

Z'ian says, "And it may seem hard to break into the area for new people. A lot of the people that are here? We've been here a long time. So I can imagine that's intimidating for someone who hasn't been."

K'del could institute a plot piece sign up page thing, for example. 'Put your name here to request some kind of in'.

Aishani says, "No one knew who I was, and if they did... there would be reasons to NOT work with me as well as they all were willing to, TBH. Honestly, if I can do that..."

Taikrin gets that it can be intimidating to people new to the area.

Aishani thought she might get kicked out of the area.

H'vier says, "Even if you're in a new character, like me, just being familiar with the area can go a long way."

Z'ian says, "And it may have been fine for you, but your experience may not have been the norm for others."

Aishani says, "I'm just saying, it is possible to come in relatively unknown and work on something that's plotty."

K'zin wonders outloud (and this might be really ridiculous/stupid) if having a page on the wiki that was like an FAQ for new/returning players? I know the information is there, but sometimes it takes a lot of pages to find the specific information you want to know about. So maybe something with an overview and then links to additional reading? (And we might have this and I might have totally missed it.)

Suireh says, "Like a guide on... how to plot? Or what's in the know? Or?"

Leova says, "What kind of info, K'zin? History? How the code works? Something else?"

Aishani says, "It may not be everyone's experience, yes. I get there's perceptions out there. But I am saying there's a way to be involved if you just take the opportunity."

Z'ian says, "And I understand what you're saying. But I'm just saying that it may not seem as simple to everyone."

H'vier says, "Right. But I don't think that's as big an issue from that angle as a new player coming in and being too intimidated to participate."

Z'ian says, "Anyway. Angling on what K'zin just mentioned."

Prue likes a bit of what K'del was saying -- about pages with some lists of things to investigate? Or if players had a page to say: 'I'm looking for ____.' Incase they don't know what character might hook into that and don't want to resort to NPCs.

Vienne says, "I think, for me, one of the things that make stuff feel black curtain is... like saying there will be This or That with the Nabol plot. That certainly gives the impression that, while perhaps there is not an end point in mind, there is a next step that's being toyed with. And in my experience, asking what that next step is does not usually lead to discussion or collaboration. Which has not necessarily made me feel like there was room to be involved. If I don't know what's going on, it's definitely hard for me to come up with ways my char might be involved in something."

Z'ian says, "As a returning player, I found it difficult to patch together the history between when I was last here and when I came back in January. There /are/ timelines but they seemed to be here or there and not exactly together."

N'ky says, "There was a wiki set up for plot things, where people could say what they were working on, what they wanted and so on. No-one used it."

K'zin says, "More like a: so you're new! Here's some things you might like to know: current plot information - a sentence or two with links to the relevant pages that have more informtion that might be harder to absorb when new. Your IC leadership: Here's a couple sentences about what the average person knows about Z'ian and a link to his character page for more in depth reading."

K'del can see that being useful, K'zin. Cool.

Aishani says, "Intimidation... did it help, H'vier, when Aza and I RPed with you when you first came in? Establishing more of those links, maybe?"

Leova scribbles. Timelines. 'Wanted' pages. ... Sort of like a Cliff Notes startup, K'zin?

Z'ian says, "And yes, Vienne. I think that may be a large chunk of it for other peopel too."

K'del says, "Have we said things will be this or that with the Nabol plot, Vienne? I didn't realise we had."

Aishani says, "That makes sense, K'zin."

K'zin knows all that information is /there/, just, it's a /lot/ to take in if you're new or even if you're trying to get just an idea. Right. Like Cliff Notes or a cheat sheet. Then you can read more if something particularly interests you.

K'del says, "And if we are giving that impression, I'm sorry. I'm more than happy to talk about stuff with people."

Leova oh! The Quick Start page.

N'hax says, "Oh yeah. "This Nabol plot is coming... there will be stuff for the little people too!"" H'vier says, "It helped to some extent. And it was fun! But I was a returning player, too."

Aishani says, "I think we're gonna have to define new player. I don't know how many new-new players there are. Have there been issues with any?"

Suireh says, "I think there's a difference between admins being completely hands off, and admins dropping seeds."

Suireh says, "For instance, Braeden being gay was a seed dropped to various people along the way." Suireh says, "But no one ran with it."

K'del does not know how Nabol is going to /resolve itself/. I have some ideas of seeds to give people.

K'del says, "To clarify."

Z'ian says, "But who cares that Braeden is gay? XD"

Suireh says, "It's an example."

Suireh says, "Like now, there's references to dead harpers and finding the dead harper body."

Suireh says, "That, from my perspective, is seriously just up to someone to find a damn body out there somewhere. XD"

Z'ian says, "And that may have come across as a little obnoxious to put it that way, but that might be something look at. If hints are dropped, but people don't pick up on them, are they something people care about and want to play?"

K'del says, "Sure."

Suireh says, "Or is it they don't know they can go seek it out?"

K'del says, "And that's why some things get dropped."

Suireh says, "Cause they feel it's pointless? Cause the story is already written."

K'del says, "By us, too. XD"

Suireh says, "I was trying to point out... seeds and having a master plan are differentish?"

Z'ian says, "I know that the pregnant weyrling was brought up frequently. But I never got the impression is was something that was interesting to the group at large, even to talk about? Etc... ^^"

Leova says, "There will be plot bits A B C D E. Some people will be interested in A and B, some in C and D, some in A and E, and whatever combination there is."

Leova says, "Different strokes~"

Aishani says, "If people dislike what's being played, why not a) talk about it, or b) think of ideas to do something else, or c) ignore it?"

Aishani says, "There's a few options there. ;)"

Taikrin says, "I think the important point is that there really, truly isn't any grand plot behind a curtain. Lots of little seeds, and thinks to drop. But the rest generally falls out where it will?"

K'del nods! I'm happy to get feedback. If there's a different kind of plot that would be more interesting? I'm all for hearing about it.

Leova says, "Some people tend some seeds more than others, so meore things happen with them. XD"

N'hax nodnods at Taikrin. No, I totally get that. But man, in this type of environment, perception is reality. And yes, Aishani, I realize my perception, past and present, could be completely off, you don't have to remind me again. XD

K'del says, "Okay."

N'hax says, "But. I don't know. I still love you guys. I'll still come back nd play, because I enjoy players here that rarely play elsewhere."

Vienne gives up trying to hunt through the backscroll... Anyway, someone said something about there being opportunities for lower-ranking people to be involved in the Nabol plot. That implies to me that there are ideas in place. Now, I'm not asking anyone to spread out all their possible notions for Nabol right now or anything. I'm just trying to point out that... it sounds like there are notions. Which, now that I read through stuff that has been said since I started typing, I realize N'hax has pointed out. And in the past, when it has sounded like that about stuff, it has not seemed like there was really an opportunity to talk about what was the ideas were.

Suireh says, "It's cause I have a scene idea."

Suireh says, "that I want to run."

Suireh says, "cause no one is finding the damn body."

K'zin personally enjoyed the added dynamics of Quielle and N'gan, but I totally get that what I enjoy may not be what other people enjoy. Briefly touching back to some people not liking playing plots or certain aspects of plots, when I'm RPing with someone if I bring up something they don't want to play about or ask for a scene that's not something they're interested in, I really appreciate direct feedback via page (or OOC comment or whatever) to let me know so I can help steer my end of things in a more fun/better direction for my RP partner(s), 'cause I like for fun to be what everyone's having in a scene.

K'del says, "Right. There are... a few things that have already been hinted at in RP that are there to come out, as soon as I can catch people to play them. Suireh has an idea, too."

Aishani says, "What he said."

Aishani says, "Er. K'zin."

K'del says, "Sure, there are ideas, but they're all low level things."

Vienne says, "So, I guess, when people say black curtain, that's just what I think. So, if that's a concern for staff, that's the best explanation I can offer."

K'del says, "And I'm happy to talk about them."

K'del nodnods.

Aishani says, "What would be the best way for people to NOT feel like there are notions?"

Aishani says, "Does there need to be an outline of those seeds?"

Taikrin says, "Should we communicate them differently?"

Aishani says, "Does there need to be just a different way for putting it?"

Aishani says, "Yes. :)"

K'del says, "I can build up a page of things that have been referenced in RP, that people could know about, for example. And list things that people /could/ find out, if they looked at x y and z."

Aishani says, "Because it seems like there's a concept of what's going on and what's going on, and there's a disconnect there."

Leova ha. Scavenger hunt. XD

Aishani says, "And I mean, if it's not trusting people, not much to do there. But if there's concrete things to do, then..."

K'del says, "Basically, even my vague ideas of what might happen tend to go out the window as soon as someone does something, because people always end up doing things I don't expect."

K'del says, "Which is the fun part."

Suireh >.>

Leova nods. The thing is, even a list like that can't be comprehensive, because new stuff arises out of RP. But... maybe it would help?

K'del is willing to give it a try, anyway.

K'del says, "Is there anything else?"

K'del says, "Or, in general, feel free to come up and ask. I'll tell you anything I know."

K'del says, "Or make suggestions."

K'del says, "Or whatever."

Vienne says, "I think there has been a lot of concern about ruining surprises or similar notions? But I guess, just... if someone is asking what's coming, they are probably pretty content with not being surprised? I don't know. I think people generally understand that things are subject to change based on what happens."

K'del says, "Sure. And if you ask me, I'll tell you what I know."

Suireh says, "Out of curiosity..."

C'wlin says, "As a new player (new to NC, new to MUSHing) it feels a little bit like a deep sea here. You can accidentally get involved (like I did), but there's no... boat to carry you to the next thing. You can be on the outside or you can be in so deep you don't know which way to go. I kind of felt that way -- and if it weren't for Suireh and Z'ian giving guiding point RP, I don't know what I would have done. Sometimes it is hard to navigate what is the right thing to do. The lighthouses are few and far between, especially when you realize how deep you got in without meaning to!"

C'wlin says, "(Not new to Pern games, just MUSH)"

Suireh says, "When there is nothing 'planned' coming, and you ask that, what kind of answer do you want?"

Suireh says, "That's to Vienne. XD"

Suireh says, "Do you want to just chat out possibilities? Or...?"

K'del totally gets that, C'wlin.

K'del says, "I know how intimidated I felt when I started at HRW."

K'del says, "Because there is so much history."

Leova says, "Good to know, C'wlin. If you have any advice on Lighthouse Construction, it would be welcome~"

Aishani has always wanted to follow up with you on our deal, C'wlin, but I'm lame and am never sure people actually want to RP with me unless they ask?

Vienne says, "Chatting out possibilities, talking about what kind of things might be fun situations, what kind of scenes were envisioned when something was developed, what the aim is - not in a an end-game way but just in a 'we wanted to create an opportunity for more craft rp' or 'we wanted to cause a little strife for stodgy characters' or.. whatever."

Aishani says, "So I mean, please do let me know if anyone has scene ideas. I try to ask as much as possible, but I don't always remember/think to."

Leova <3 People Who Ask.

Vienne says, "I don't know. I enjoy brainstorming."

K'del is happy to brainstorm! If you want to brainstorm with me, just page. Seriously.

Vienne ^^ I might!

Suireh says, "So if there's no envisioned scenes and nothing really going on other than a few seeds sprinkled to see what will take and what people are interested in... just brainstorming?"

Suireh says, "Is there... >.>"

Suireh says, "Is there a way to do like a bi-monthly brainstorming chat type deal?"

Suireh says, "Either in the unused forum, or on game or something?"

K'del says, "Sure."

Suireh says, "Something both formal and informal like in page or chatting or what not?"

C'wlin totally turtled a bit after that, Aishani!

Aishani says, "Oh noes!"

Suireh says, "Like... the list is good, but I think following up on the list might be hard for some people. Like, going to it and going: Oh y es, my character would be involved. But having a conversation informally or formally might help feel more involved and less... blindly out at sea?"

K'del says, "No, that makes a lot of sense."

Leova says, "Show of hands: who'd be interested in participating in plot/interaction brainstorming chats like that?"

Aishani would.

H'vier would, probably.

Aishani says, "It definitely might help people see hooks, or hooks for other people."

Prue would.

K'zin would.

K'del says, "Cool."

K'del says, "I think that's a go, then!"

Vienne grins. ^^

K'del says, "Okay. Anything else, for now?"

Aishani isn't sure if she interrupted C'wlin getting to his question or not. >.>

C'wlin has no more question... that I got that out was enough. XD I don't wanna seem lame...

K'del says, "You don't!"

Aishani says, "No. I'm lame anyway, I already said that. ;P"

K'del okay. If there /is/ anything else, feel free to page me. I love this area, and I /want/ people to be happy and comfortable playing here, so I'm always willing to listen.

K'del says, "So: thank you all for being open and honest and frank and all of that."

K'del says, "I hope we can do better in future. XD"

Vienne ruffles K'del and passes some cookies. ^^

Aishani says, "Thanks! *eats cookies*"

K'del says, "Yay~"

Aishani runs away! Thanks all. Let me know if there's anything I can help with.

Aishani goes home.

Aishani has left.

Vienne says, "Omg, I just saw the rwho. So many people on!"

K'del says, "So many!"

K'del closes off the log. Thanks for coming, everyone!